Why so pale and wan,fond lover?

What a wonderful poem to start this year!!!

Who hasn´t felt like this at least once in this life????

Sir John Suckling

This is the man who wrote the poem, Sir John Suckling.

Listen to the poem

-What do you think of the voice?

-What do the last three lines of the poem suggest as regards men’s attitude toward women in Suckling’s time?

-Have you ever been in a similar situation? Would you like to share the anecdote with us?

In class, students got in pairs and wrote a response to the dear friend, the voice of the poem.

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19 Responses to Why so pale and wan,fond lover?

  1. Milagros Brascó says:

    -What do you think of the voice?
    When I read the poem I imagined the voice of someone who is giving advise to a close friend. Whereas the advice he gives might not seem sweet, it is objective and direct showing the character of the authentic friendship.
    However, I have to confess that when I heard the online reading of the poem I was a little bit dissapointed since I didn’t find this authenticity of a close men’s friendship: I found the voice tepid, dull.

    -What do the last three lines of the poem suggest as regards men’s attitude toward women in Suckling’s time?
    By the suprisingness of the voice about his friend caring too much about a woman, I understand that it was strange to be in that position. A man suffering for unrequited love was strange in those times. Women weren’t given so importance, they were just a way of entretainment.

    -Have you ever been in a similar situation? Would you like to share the anecdote with us?
    I have been the one who gives advise and if I consider that a friend is suffering in vane I always take the position of being objective and to the point (as the one on the poem). However, if I see that my friend had a really important relationship and is passing through a really hard time, I prefer staying in silence. Words can’t cure. Silence and company is a way of manifestating love and comprehension to a pearson: a hug can say a lot more than words. In a moment of sensibility people don’t usually want to hear anything, they just want to feel loved.

  2. Piky Loza says:

    1) The voice is a guy trying to reanimate a friend that is suffering because a woman didn’t want to be with him. I think this voice is a great person because he is helping a friend that needs a friend’s suppont but at the same time he is really harsh with him. I think that he could help him by saying the same things in another mood.

    2) I think that in the last three lines the writer is trying to convince his friend that that girl is not worth it and that life passes and that he is losing time. He must accept that and move on.

    3) Yes, this happened me several times. Sometimes I was the one crying for someone and other times I was the incharged of reanimate a friend. I hate when a friend is suffering because a person broke her heart so I always try to help them to continue with their lives like if nothing happened.

  3. Milagros Zubizarreta says:

    1)The voice of the poem is a friend of a man who is suffering from love. This friend is really trying to help out the man to over pass this situation. The voice in audio reading the poem out loud does not express this a lot. It is a very rough voice that does not sound friendly and sweet.
    2)In the last three lines show how women at that time were not as appreciated as now a days. The friend wanted to assure the man that if she was the one to not love him it was her loss in the end. He would eventually find another woman.
    3)Yes, I have been in the situation of the speaker of trying to cheer up a friend after a heart break. It can be very hard and you have to be patient when someone is going through something like this. They can be very closed about the situation , not wanting to move on but you have to keep on supporting them

  4. Paka Muller says:

    1)I think that the voice of the poem is from a really good friend that tries to help another, being very realistic and reflexive. Althought it might sound harsh to the broken heart- guy, is better to face reality with a friend’s help and support than eventurally alone by force.

    2) I think that the last three lines are how the voice tries to convince his friend that is not his fault that this woman doesnt love him, but hers. She’s the one that cant understand his loving, and the one who will miss it. So the very last line, in my opinion is an expresion that means “let it go” or “forget about her, she’ll miss it!!”

    3) Yes, i have been in both the voice and the broken-heart’s situtation. Both are very hard, but i suffered more the situation of the poor guy who is not loved by his crush. Its funny because I always give my broken-heart friends the same advices when they are in that position, but when it was my turn to experience it, i could not follow them. My own advices werent good enough to get over the situation, how ironic!

  5. Joaquin Diaz Walker says:

    1. In my opinion, the voice of the poem, is motivating the person who is speaking to, because, the reciever of this poem, has been suffering because of love lately, and what the voice of the poem is making, is to encourage him to stand up and says that, if he keeps crying, he won’t solve anything.
    2. The last three lines of the poem, show that the friend, tells the one who is heartbroke, that, if she is not moved by what you tell you, nothing will, so the devil may take her, meaning that she is not as good as you are, but feels superior, but she isn’t.
    3. I’ve been in both situations, in the one of the friend, that is heartbroken, you suffer, and it might hurt a lot, but, on the other hand, if you are in the side of the friend, that supports you, you must cheer your friend up. If you are heartbroken, the best feeling, is to receive the support your friends give you, it is what picks you up, and what makes you face life with a smile again.

  6. Belen Gay says:

    1) In my opinion, the voice of this poem is a man who is speaking about a woman, he is depressive and dissapointed. In the poem, he is talking to a friend(man to man). The voice of the website is like without feelings, I think that maybe he can’t show or express his feelings anymore.
    2) The last three lines expressed how his friend wsa trying to show him the number of women that he can get in love with.
    3) Me, as a friend, I know what is to support someone and to help him to realice about some things. Maybe I had passed a similar situation, however I have friends that help me like the poem.

  7. Joaquin Olaizola says:

    1- In my opinion the voice is really harsh with his friend. This man needs love and support and altough the voice is trying to help him, it is being very rude with him. He critizes a lot his friend´s image and attitude. This may be helpful for his friend to make him open his eyes, but also it may be terrible becuase he is really sensible at this moment. However, if I was the voice I would have done the same in order to show him that his attitude was not going to help him at all.
    2- The last three lines of the poem show how difficult or strange was too see a man suffering for a woman at that time. Women were not so important or unique for men. If one woman didn´t love them, they just changed it for another one. It was worthless to suffer so much becuase of a woman.
    3- I have been in the position of helping a friend becuase he was suffering. It is difficult and you have to take care of what you say. Is not easy to know what to do but you never have to leave him alone. He needs support and company.

  8. Federico Tear says:

    1) To be honest, I agree with the tone that the friend reads the poem with. This clearly shows how close they were. To friends you are always nice and try to make them feel better. But with best friends, you just simply say the truth. To be clearer, I do not try to make Joaco feel better, I just tell him what I think because that is the kind of relationship that we have. But to another friend I would probably say some kind words to lift him up as much as I can.

    2) The last lines in the poem demonstrate how men only thought of women as something, as a thing. Today, women are treated like if they were the most important thing in the world. If you lose your girlfriend or wife, you just simply cannot overcome it and if you do it would take you a lot of time. At that time, the friend is simply saying, let her go she’s just one more!

    3) We’ve all been there. we all have friends that went through a tough time trying to forget a girl. but the most important thing is to show that you are there for them, so that when your turn comes, they are there for you.

  9. Agus Buljevich says:

    1) the voice of the poem we have to hear was not as the way i imagined. I didn`t like it because i thought the voice will be more sweet, not so robotic. It transmit me nothing, there were no emotion in the words. Instead, the words of the poem were very nice for me because although he was a little bit rude sometimes “Will, when speaking well can’t win her” i think that their intentions were good and he wanted to help him.
    2) i think that the poem suggest that in that time it was not common that a woman ignored a man, and in this case the woman was taken as someone who loss her mind “the devil take her!”. For that reason, the friend is trying to make the sad man understand that there was not reason to suffer for her.
    3) i have been in the situation of the sad man and in the situation of the friend that is trying to make his friend feeling better.

  10. Agus Buljevich says:

    1) the voice of the poem we have to hear was not as the way i imagined. I didn`t like it because i thought the voice will be more sweet, not so robotic. It transmit me nothing, there were no emotion in the words. Instead, the words of the poem were very nice for me because although he was a little bit rude sometimes “Will, when speaking well can’t win her” i think that their intentions were good and he wanted to help him.
    2) i think that the poem suggest that in that time it was not common that a woman ignored a man, and in this case the woman was taken as someone who loss her mind “the devil take her!”. For that reason, the friend is trying to make the sad man understand that there was not reason to suffer for her.
    3) i have been in the situation of the sad man and on the situation of the friend that is trying to make his friend feeling better.

  11. mili+alezzandrini says:

    1) I think that the voice is according to what the writer is really transmuting to his friend. the he should not love this woman because he is one of many. it is very harsh but that emphasises what his friend should do.
    2) What the last three lines of the poem suggest as regards men’s attitude toward women in Suckling’s time is that, the man can move on and continue with his life. that a woman who don’t look at the love that is given to her, is not a woman who worth it.
    3) i think that everyone will be or was in a situation like this. everybody have his “impossible love”

  12. Majo Tear says:

    1) The voice of the one who read the poem felt nothing as I expected it would have sounded. What I heard in that website was practically a computer talking whereas I imagined a voice of a man who would sound mad at woman and desperate for his friend to realize how this girl is not worth it.
    2) The last three lines of the poem suggest how different women were seen at that time rather than nowadays as in our present time is not seen as bad if a man suffers for some woman who not loves him back. Because at Suckling’s time this poem suggest how impossible was even the thought of a man suffering for a woman as a woman back in those days had no power and no self respect from mean as they were considered the ones with all power and women not.
    3)In my life experience I have been in several occasions in both sides of the poem, as the one needing that good friend, and also being that good friend. I feel like is very important to have someone who would make you leave that stage of life where you suffer from a wrong love. And I feel like it is also good to be the friend as helping your friends in that bad situation also helps you in the future for when you are there.

  13. Nicolás Araya says:

    1. Even though the voice is in a way punishing his friend, he is helping him to eventually overcome this situation. It is very direct and not very polite, because his friend might have needed some time to think and reflect about his behaviours but instead he has his friend tell him off. “Will, when looking well can’t move her, looking ill prevail”, in this quotation we can see how he talks to him in a very fortright way, making his point clear.

    2. I believe that this displays that, feeling that much pain over a woman was not worth it. If she still doesn’t love you after so much effort, she won’t be convinced and you can always move on to the next one. At this time, women weren’t something to worry and think about so much.

    3. I have had to cheer up a firend before and at some point I believe we all have done it. maybe in another situation but probably we have all been there for a friend.

  14. FranciscoRipoll says:

    1) My thought about the voice is that it does not transmit anything to the reader.
    The voice is so rude with his friend by using phrases such as “why so pale? Then the voice told to his friend that this love is kind of impossible. However, he did that because he wanted the friend saw the reality, that he could not waste more time with this woman.
    2) It make reference to the incompressible thing of being suffering for a woman, at that time, boys did not suffer by women, that is why he wanted to give the message to his friend that there were lots of girls who he could love.

    3) It happened to me once when I told my best friend that the girl he loved had a boyfriend, that he could not be with her at that time. This is so harsh but it was the best for him.

  15. juan cruz gomez roca says:

    a) I think that although the voice is very rough, he is encouraging him to change his attitude by saying that crying over her won’t bring her to him. “Will, when looking well can’t move her, Looking ill prevail?”
    b)I think that it shows that if a women didn’t loved someone there was no reason to suffer for her, just stop paying attention to her. They didn’t make a lot of trouble about some frustrated love.
    c) No, I`ve never been in that situation.

  16. sofi teran says:

    1) I think that the voice does not transmit any emotions. It feels like empty. I imagined a very different voice for this poem. It felt almost robotic to me.
    Concerning the voice of the poem, I think that he uses tough love. He is kind of rude with his friend by saying things such as “why so pale? Will when looking well can`t move her´. He`s saying to his friend that not even at his best he could make her love him, so now? It was kind of impossible. However, he knows that it may be the only way to get him back on his feet again, and make him put himself out there again
    2) It shows that men did not feel like suffering for a woman. If they had tried everything they thought it was worth trying and did not see the result they expected, they just move on to the other one. They didn`t care. It was not worthy losing their time moaning about it. It was not common to see a man depressed because of a woman
    3) It happen to me to be in the position of the friend that is trying to cheer up his friend. But not the other way around

  17. Belen Irazusta says:

    a)i think that the voice is very harsh with his friend. We know that he is trying to help this friend to forget a woman, but the things he say to him are very rude. for example, in the first stanza the author tells him that f the woman didnt like him when he was well,, why would she like him when he appears ill “pale and wan”?
    b)i think that what this suggest as regards men’s attitude toward women in Suckling’s time is that suffering for a woman was something crazy to happen. and also that it really did not mattered that much. it is like okay if she does not love you, go and find another, it is not such a problem.
    c) i thing that we have all been some time in the place of the author of the poem and also in the place of his friend. this is not something strange that happens once in a while, it is very common to try to help a friend of yours if you really care.

  18. Federico Tear says:

    Poem to the Dear Friend: Thank You

    Why such a good person and caring friend?
    Buddy, I am your mate
    You’ll always care about your friends until the end.
    Your words are good fate
    Buddy, by your words I am amazed

    Why so wise and thoughtful?
    Why so wise?
    Your selflessness is powerful
    You give good advice.
    Why so wise?

    You inspire me with your fellowship.
    If I ever see you
    I assure you, You’ll have my companionship.
    Like you, there’s a few.
    Our friendship is true.

    Federico Tear and Nicolas Araya

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